"It is possible to make a comfortable living being a musician," saysEric Ng, Chinese music industry veteren.

As part of The Insider Series, which comprises of a series of sharing sessions by industry veterens organized by library@esplanade last week, established producer-songwriters-arrangers Eric Ng and Jim Lim shared their journey in the Chinese music industry, their experiences and insights on what it takes to enter, survive, and ultimately, flourish in the music industry today.

Jim Lim (left) and Eric Ng speaking at The Insider Series

If you are an aspiring musician, here are the main takeaways from the two hour session punctuated with jokes and laughter:

• Be humble and open, and always be willing to learn. As a musician, learning never ends.
• Be encouraging and helpful to others too. That was the culture that Eric and Jim were exposed to when they first started in Taiwan.
• Everyone works with a different style: You can choose to do everything yourself, or you can choose to work with others to cover your weaknesses
• If you are just starting out, find friends who can help you, for example, to sing on your demo.
• Remember that the music business is, after all, still business. Don’t take things too personally. If you receive constructive feedback to amend your song, change it.
• Songwriting levels the playing ground for all musicians. If you want to be recognized and valued as a musician, start writing your own songs.
• If you want to be a hit songwriter, first start by having a mainstream mindset. Write hits that will work commercially, even if they may not be your personal favourite.
• It is possible to make a comfortable living being a musician.
• However, being a musician is never a straightforward route. Hence, it’s important to know when to let go, and always have a positive mindset. Manage your own expectations.
• Learn to sell yourself. Musicians are like door-to-door salesmen. Learn to convince others of your own value.

Want to know the details of the full session? Read on.

Eric: I’m a music producer, music arranger. I started off as a guitarist, I’m also a keyboardist, I also play a bit of drums, bass, and I started this company Funkie Monkies Production together with Jim.

Jim: It’s the same for me. We play a bit of everything. I started off as a sound engineer when I was seventeen.  When I was in Secondary 1, I had a strong feeling to do something in my life. Whenever I watched TV or listened to songs, I was listening to whatever that was going on in the music arrangement. I would hear the drums, the bass, the chords, the vocals, although I did not have any music education at that time. So I thought maybe that was my calling, and what I was good at. I started learning piano in Primary 1, and really loved playing it. So I started with classical music first, and went on to pop music. After that, I started doing music arrangements for my friends during the Xin Yao times. My father bought me my first keyboard, the JV1000 and the MC500, which was an antique music sequencing engine.

Eric: It’s like the abacus of music programming. (Laughs)

Jim: That was how I started. I did lousy music arrangements free-lance, and I didn’t even know how to quantize. Eventually these friends whom I was arranging for joined a record company. One of them asked me if I was keen to continue arranging for them, and that was when I first stepped into a recording studio for tracking. The first commercial arrangement I did was sung by Ann Kok, a song called Nobody Knows. Eventually I started as an apprentice in this company. As an apprentice, we are not considered employees and they don’t really pay us. You could come and learn, but you have to do stuff for us, like buy lunch, buy tea, and observe from a distance away, and you would be scolded if you got close to the board. During those days, they were still using the two inch analog tape. At that time, many people went through the same type of apprenticeship, unlike now where there are much better channels through schools which offer courses that you could learn from.

Life was fun. After school, I would rush to the studio to learn as much as I could.

Eric: I started even being interested in music only when I was seventeen. Before that, I just had no direction in life. I didn’t know what to do, I had no friends. Every day after school, I stayed at home and played computer games. I could press my right fingers quite fast which later actually helped me as a musician because I could play the guitar faster. At the age of seventeen, I saw some cool guys in school playing the guitar, and they were playing Stand By Me. As I watched, I thought it looks pretty easy and I could go back and try that, and from then I wanted to start learn to play the guitar. Of course as with many kids of my generation, my father said, “You cannot learn guitar.” So I went to dig up my savings, and I had savings because I had no life (laughs), and I bought myself a cheap electro guitar. It was fun, because it a passion. When you first start, you don’t think about it. I’m not like most people, like Jim, where he had this vision that this was what he wanted to do. I never had such thoughts, and I didn’t even know that such a thing exists – that you could play and make a living. I never bothered thinking about that. As I started playing, I made many friends, for the first time in my life.

I started jamming. I would walk into a studio and ask if someone needed a drummer, and would play randomly, and that was how my music education started in jamming studios. It was a quick transition. At seventeen, I was jamming, and when I was eighteen, I was starting to do gigs already, and doing them badly and almost for free.

One day, some guy asked me if I wanted to do Chinese music, I was like “Huh? Chinese music ah? Whatever. I’ll just go and play.” I never heard Chinese music before that. After that, I started to play in pubs and that’s where I knew Jim, because he was playing in this pub along Tanjong Pagar called Strings.

Later I went into demo producing, got friends to sing on them because I can’t sing, and we had a lot of fun. None of them asked for money. I also did some demos for them, and it was all a friendly exchange. We didn’t really think about the concept of money when we were twenty years old. Unlike nowadays, even kids who are sixteen would start thinking if they could make a living out of this.

Fortunately I came to know this guy called Steven, who owned a music publishing house, and he was pitching a lot of songs to people like Ah Mei or Jacky Cheung. He heard that I wrote songs, so he asked me to write for him. I gave him seven songs a week, and just focused on writing a lot of content. Along the way, I met a lot of singers, and they asked me, “Why don’t you just come to Taiwan and check it out?” One of them was Ke Yi Min and the other was Peng Jia Hui. At that time, there was a big scene there as it was the pinnacle of Taiwan music because there were no MP3s.

When I went there, it was really an eye opener, because you can feel a very strong culture there. Don’t talk about Taiwan, I just came back from Phuket yesterday, and when I was in Thai pub, the crowd went crazy with every song and they were singing along to all the songs. Does that happen in Singapore? (Silence)

Jim: I think it’s because of the language. In Thailand, everyone speaks Thai. I just came back from Japan too, and over there, you can see many musicians basking along the streets, and there would be people crowding around watching them perform. In Japan, everyone speaks Japanese, but in Singapore, we have English, Chinese, Malay, etc, so the attention is pretty much divided.

Eric: Yes, but that is also our strength, because Singaporeans are exposed to a mixture of cultures all blended together, and this is reflected in our sound. So back in Taiwan, I saw that everyone was enjoying Taiwan music, and it was a very friendly environment to work in because everyone respects everybody, even if they don’t mean it, but they treat you very nicely (laughs). Even if the song sucks, they will say it’s still ok. That was the culture that I was exposed to, and it really encourages you, because if everyone were to tell you straight that your stuff sucks and you should just quit, which was exactly what my teacher told me – to quit school because I did not do well in school – it really makes you feel lousy. If somebody gives you encouragement, then it will spur you on. When I first went to Taiwan, all my songs were really horrible, but because through my demos they could hear that I had some sense of arrangement, so that was when they started asking me to be a music arranger. For those who do not know what a music arranger is, an arranger creates a structure around the main melody that he is given, and adds on instruments that will bring out the flavor of the song.

When I came back to Singapore, Steven said that there were a few Taiwanese producers coming to Singapore, and he would introduce me to them. Amongst those I had met were Benjamin Lim and Michael Au, both of them were the reason why Jacky Cheung became so famous. When I met them, there was no agenda, because they didn’t know what I did, but they were very willing to help me and gave me advice. Benjamin started listening to my songs and told Steven to get me to do some “stuff” for him. He wanted me to listen to a certain melody and asked me to make a demo out of it. At that time, I didn’t know what music arrangement was, so I thought, “Is it because I can play guitar on this recording?” He said, “Yes, yes, just do it.” So I went to program the drums, bass and played guitar on it, and I was quite happy with it. After he heard it, he told me it was not bad, and told me which parts to change, and I did.  He then told me to come to the studio the next day to do tracking. I didn’t know what tracking was, but I just went anyway. It was a beautiful studio that is no longer in existence. The studio was designed and built by the team that built one of the Abby Road studios.

I used my keyboard to program the instruments, and that was when I met this guy called Terence Teo, who was still using the MC500, and he’s a very famous arranger who has done works for FIR, Stefanie Sun and many others. He told me that I had to guide the drummer and bassist. I was surprised because I thought I was just there to record my guitar. But he told me, “No, you have to do it, that’s your job!” So I did. I went into the studio, and there was this drummer called Gary, and he plays wonderful drums. He’s like a machine with feel. So Steven told me to guide him, so I told him basically what to do and we finished the track. After that there was a bassist called Andy Peterson, and all of them are really top musicians. After I guided him as well, we were done with the drums and bass, and I was getting excited because I thought finally it was my turn to record my guitar. Then Steven told me to sit at the board because he was getting another guy to play the guitar for me. That was when my world crumbled down. (laughs) In my mind, I thought, “Steven you idiot, asked me to do so many things and you’re not letting me play my guitar?” He told me to just sit there, watch, and learn something.

Then I saw this guitarist called Jonathan Xu Hua Qiang, who wrote many great songs like Ah Mei’s Jie Tuo (解脱) and is a very good guitarist. He was of course much better than me, especially his tone. And that was also the first thing that I learnt about showbusiness from Jonathan. You can play one chord like that (demonstrates with little movement with his hand), and you can play the same chord like this (dramatic action with hands playing the guitar). It’s the same thing, but it looks so much better. He makes it look so stylo, and makes people think that it’s very difficult to play, but actually it’s very simple.

A few weeks later, I received $600 cash from Steven. I asked him what was it for, and he explained to me that was for my arrangement fees. I was so amazed and happy because I made $600 for a few days of work and all I wanted during that time was to make $800 in a month! Furthermore, the song turned out to be the first single of an artist called Zhong Jian Fen Zi. It felt really great, because you’re walking on the streets and you hear a piece of music made by you. That was when I decided that this is really something I want to do, and I started noticing that there were many avenues that I could go into, from songwriting, I could move into arrangement, production, playing the guitar and touring with artists.

Jim: I think for Eric, you’re very lucky because you met a lot of Gui Ren (贵人) who have helped you a lot along the way. For my case, I didn’t have any help. After army, I was employed formally by this company as an in-house producer. At that time, I didn’t know what was producing. All I knew was recording and buying lunch and tea, and making basic arrangements. Producing is very important, and a lot of people actually do not know what producing entails. As a producer, you need to oversee a certain project, which is not easy. You need to understand every single step, starting from songwriting. A producer may not know how to write songs, but he will know how to judge what is a commercial song, and which song will suit which artiste. Producing also includes vocal recording, recording the singer, the backup vocals, mixing and so on. So the producer has to guide all these people along the way, so that the song turns out the way that he wants.

There are many producers in Singapore who do everything themselves. At that time, I was an aspiring producer who wanted to do everything myself, because I was a control freak and the song can only sound like the way I wanted. If it was done by anyone else, I would think that it’s not nice and I would want to do it myself. Step by step, I learnt the different aspects of producing, and it was a lot of fun during that time. I had just finished army, and the pay was more than army, so I was happy already. The good thing about this studio was that it was an in-house studio, and I could use it as much as I wanted to. I could camp overnight in the studio and live there, which I did, just to learn or figure a small little detail. During that time, it really wasn’t about money making, but about the passion and interest. The whole recording thing was new to me. I learnt piano and the guitar and knew what was arrangement, but recording and mixing was a whole new ballgame to me. I was enjoying myself so much with all the equipment provided to me.

Halfway through, I realized that I wasn’t recognized at all. In order for people to recognize my effort, I have to have a value. Most of the time, you would see the credits for the songwriter and lyricist, hardly the arranger or mixer, so that was when I decided it’s time to write songs. I started quite late writing songs, at the age of around 23, and through writing songs, people see your name keep appearing, and they assume that you did everything.

When I was 24, my boss asked me if I wanted to be a singer. I told him no, because I wanted to be a producer. But he told me that the easiest way for others to recognize my name was for me to be a singer. He had signed two male artistes who were my friends, and due to some contractual issues, he decided to cut costs and cut an album for us as a group. Back then, there were many two-guy groups like Zhong Jian Fen Zi, Shan Feng Dian Guo, Guang Liang Pin Guan, so my boss thought that maybe we should do a three-man group.

Although I didn’t like to be on the front, I thought that I should give it a try if it could make me more credible and get me more jobs. That was how Dreamz FM was formed. It was a great experience, as I had the opportunity to go Taiwan. I stayed there for a year to learn about production and know people there. The people I met weren’t as helpful, but the overall culture was great. I got myself attached to this producer named Jerry Huang Shu Jun as his assistant, and I learnt a lot from him. I learnt that music production is very much about entertainment. During those days, you had to learn how to entertain people, learn how to drink with them, and from there I got to know and work with very good singers like Ah Mei, who also helped me a lot, asking me to write and vocal produce for her.

When I came back to Singapore, I was much more equipped with knowledge as a producer. I started to source and groom my own artists, produced the whole album and provided a singular direction for them. Even up till today, I am pretty proud of one of the projects that I did, which involved this artiste Shi Kang Jun. I found him singing at a karaoke, and he had a very good voice, so I asked him if he was interested to go for an audition. He decided to sign with us, and I produced a pseudo-British band sounding album with him from beginning to the end.

After all these experiences, I left shortly and joined Eric with his Funkie Monkies. I realized that getting to know the right people who recognized your value is very important. At that time, I didn’t care about money, I just wanted to learn and do. After I left the company, I realized something was wrong. Firstly, my pay could have been better, because my other producer friends were getting around two to three thousand per month. Another lesson I learnt was that, with regards to songwriting, when you are signed to a publishing house who will help you do all the admin and sell your songs, they will have to take a commission from the amount that is quoted to the client. For a beginner, the industry rate was that the writer will get fifty percent of royalty. As you establish yourself as a writer, then you can negotiate for a better rate. Be mindful of what publishers offer you before you sign that contract. It’s important that you know where your value is, and it’s not only about passion.

Eric: Arrangement provided a regular income for me, but I also started to think about how I could step out and go beyond being just arranger. I also noticed the same thing. Everybody only bothers about the songwriter and lyricist, so I continued to keep writing songs. As I was arranging a lot of mainstream material, it started to rub on me on what the industry wanted, and I started to sell some of my own songs. The first song I sold was to an old timer called Yang Ling, and my first single was performed by Cass Phang. As I had come from a not-so-mainstream background, I was still struggling to strike a balance in writing so that my songs that were not too mainstream.

Later I got to know to know this guy called Jonathan Lee, and he liked my stuff because they were not so mainstream. He started getting me on board on many other projects, and one of them was for Karen Mok. Her first and third single were my songs. Then he also asked me if I was interested to co-write with his then-wife, Sandy Lam, who was working on her own album. I flew to Shanghai and we wrote really fast. Up till today, I don’t spend more than 30 minutes writing a song, and she is also the efficient type, and in one week, we wrote seventeen songs, and one of them was called Zhi Fei Ji (Paper Aeroplane), and it was written during the time when we were supposed to take a break. I was playing the guitar, and we started piecing together this song. That song turned out to be my first hit song. A lot of people knew it, and because of that, Sandy also asked me to join her for a tour, which included China, Japan and Malaysia. That was when I saw the difference between writing a song for your own creative purposes, and writing a song for mainstream appeal where I could see thirty, forty, fifty thousand people screaming this song back at you when you are on stage. Of course, later I also discovered that the royalties are also much nicer. That was the point I decided, ok, I want to sell out, which is not a bad thing. I want to write songs for that Ah Beng in the KTV. I want him to enjoy singing my song. I started shifting my song direction. If you tune into any mainstream radio, most of them are slow songs, and so that’s where I am going to concentrate on, and that was where more of my songs started moving. I started working with Liang Jing Ru, Tanya Chua and Stefanie Sun, and it all started with having this mainstream mindset. At that time I also realized that I cannot be the world’s best guitarist, nor the world’s best arranger or producer, because there is always somebody better than you technically. But when you write songs, you can never guarantee if the next song can be equally good or be better. There is no standard for writing songs. It’s like abstract art, picking elements from all over and making it simple so that the world will sing together with you. So I focused on songwriting, because songwriting puts you up there with everybody else. I was Eric Ng, right at the bottom, and there was Jonathan Lee, right at the top, and these two worlds wouldn’t have collided if not for songwriting. Songwriting is a way where it really levels out the playing ground for everybody. Like how Jim shared, there are people who can write a song but can’t even play an arrangement, it really comes out of nowhere.

But I also notice that there are trends, and there are actually shapes and structures, or formulas in that sense, that you can make a song memorable and catchy, even if the melody is not nice.

I decided that I was not going to write songs for myself, but for others. So I had an agenda where I would write five commercial songs and five songs for whatever else, and I did that for many years. Of course, the commercial ones would get the furthest, but as a musician, you also feel great when a song that is totally out of this world and is non-commercial gets into an album and gives you that kick. One of these was picked up by Ah Mei, which was a heavy rock song, and it was even used as a single, and I got some royalties out of it. That was when I discovered the power of songwriting. Everything revolves around it. Through our songs, people looked for our arrangement or production, and if you look around in the Chinese scene, 90% of producers are songwriters, because the Asian music scene is very melody-driven, and if the guy understands this, they assume that the guy can take charge of the whole song.

How did you continue to hone your craft, after you did Dreamz FM?

Jim: Life will be super boring if there wasn’t anything to learn. I’m glad that in this music line, it’s a never ending journey to learn. There are so many things to learn, discover and better yourself at. Currently, I’m trying to hone my mixing. There was a period of time I was into arranging deep house dance music, then I shifted to a more band-sound arrangement. I just keep doing different things, including vocal production, which is my forte. Vocal production is like 40% music and 60% psychology, handling the artiste in the studio, which can be a very pressurizing feel for them because they are not used to hearing themselves through the headphones. Vocal production is something that I keep trying to improve myself on. Sometimes it can be very aggravating, because you know how exactly how the song is supposed to sound like, but the singer is unable to deliver it, so you will need to find a point between your expectation and the singer’s natural ability. I find it very challenging, to bring the best out of the singer, and not to make him sound like you. Same for backing vocals, and I would try different styles, sometimes spacing them far apart, or sometimes putting them close to each other for a different effect. There’s a lot to hone in this industry, and every day I’m learning something new.

Eric: Somewhere along the way, I noticed that you can actually make a comfortable living out of being a musician. What is considered comfortable, is of course defined differently for different people, but I realized that you don’t need to be struggling to be a professional musician, earning a comfortable pay not much less than your friend who is drawing a salary from a nine-to-five job.

I started thinking, how I could work with people who could cover my weaknesses. I started to seek out all the top musicians I know. When I did my arrangements or productions, I engaged all these top musicians who are better than me to play on them, and if others heard that this piece of music was top grade, it’s my credit. (Laughs) It was an evil plan, and even today I work with them, including this top string arranger Bang Wen Fu, who has done a lot of musicals. Unlike Jim, I don’t think I have so much time to learn every part of production, but I want to focus on the things that I think I can do well in, and just outsource the rest to the best.

As musicians, whether you are a gigging musician in a pub, or a songwriter, I realize that we are just door to door salesmen. We have to let people know this is what we are worth, and there are a lot of creative people who cannot detach themselves away from the fact that this is actually business. When you can’t do that, you will get hurt for all the wrong reasons. For example, after your client pays you, but later remarks that it is not very good, and you totally blow up on him, it’s your loss, because you may never ever get him again. Why would you want to burn your bridges if he already paid you for your services? After all, I learnt something out of it, and I wouldn’t have gotten the job if I had laid out all my strict rules from the beginning. The balance is when it’s time for us to take action, and when should you allow yourself to made use of and let go. When I submit my songs, most of the time, the arrangement is 80% done, and it almost sounds like the final product. There were so many times that I heard that they found another arranger or producer, but when the song is released, I heard that the final song sounds exactly the same as my demo. It happened a few times, but any sensible person in the record company would have easily noticed that this was happening, sooner or later, they would recognize you and wish to pay you.

After one or two years of receiving $600 for an arrangement, I decided to put my foot down and started to charge more. This whole business of being able to raise your own value is a difficult balance. That was why I bought a lot of books to read to learn how to present yourself and convince other people of your value. Like what Jim said, it’s not just about the production. The whole business is about the psychology as well. If you can convince a person that you’re worth something, maybe you may fail with one person, but at the end of the day, if you really persist, I think people will recognize you for it. For me, to hone my craft, I still only focus on songwriting, because it still holds true to me the fact that I will not be the world’s best whatever, but my songs have a place. I’m also always trying to find out more ways to help people monetize from this business. That’s why I set up Funkie Monkies, because I wanted to be my old boss, Steven, someone who could bring about many people and form an army or team to have more leverage or bargaining power. I set up Funkie Monkies so that I could also hone that part of the brain, which was my business sense.

How did we continue to move on in this industry?

Eric: Stay humble, stay open. Anyone could walk up to me or Jim to ask how to do this or achieve this effect, and I will definitely help you. This was the culture that I was open to in Taiwan, unlike in Singapore. Nowadays, there’s nothing to hide. There’s Youtube, you could find basically any information you want on the Internet. Sharing also helps us to understand more about ourselves. We have already completed six seven batches of song writing students, and we learnt a lot from them too.

What is your biggest setback?

Jim: There is no one thing, but there was a situation back in my old company that when people wanted to buy your songs, they would give you a lump sum of money and give them the whole song. The song belongs to them, and they will not pay you any more royalties. There was once I wrote a pretty huge hit song during the late 90s, and when the credits were out, it was under the artiste’s own name, but the truth is that it was written by me, but I couldn’t say anything because I already agreed to sell the whole song to them. I nearly cried when I heard the song on the radio and the DJ mentioned that the song was written by him. Furthermore, the song was also covered by another artiste, so it was not a setback, but I felt really sad. From then, I told myself that I would never agree to such terms again.

Eric: When you want to make your passion a career, it’s not a straightforward thing. When you ask most people out there, they would think, “How is it possible?” Especially in Singapore.

So in the first place, if you want to do this, you have to manage your expectations. If I wanted to be a doctor, I know I would have to go to doctor school, graduate and become a doctor working in a hospital or clinic. It’s a very straightforward route. It’s a difficult one, but a straightforward path. But as a musician, there were many things which we didn’t know or are unacceptable, but at the end of the day, as long as you learn something from it, that is the greatest thing that you can receive from any setback. If you want to do this as a career, you have to wire yourself positively and move on. We have many emotional musician friends, and because they were unwilling to let it go, they waste one or two years of their lives just dwelling on it, or trying to take action, and in the end, nobody gains from this.

Jim: Yes, I totally agree. It’s important to have a very positive mindset, and always be humble.

Eric: On the things we wish we knew when we first started out – the answer will be in line with what we will be doing for the next 9 months. Recently, the government has started to be quite supportive towards the music industry. We are working with MDA to train up a new batch of songwriters. We started the first batch already, and it was very successful. MDA funds up to 90% of the school fees. When we first started out, we would die to have this chance. First of all, we don’t know where to go, we don’t know how to do it, so it’s cool to see MDA, WDA and NAC coming in to give grants, because it’s all musicians who are benefiting  from this. That was the only thing I wished existed.

Jim: I feel very happy that nowadays a lot of things are more accessible and simpler for musicians, not only because of the government’s support, but the scene is more vibrant because now there’s a lot of things that you can do at home. You can record at home, you can do music arrangement at home, you can mix at home. You will need to invest, not it’s not much for a basic set up. During our time, it was so expensive.

Eric: Now everyone says that the music industry is doomed. But actually if I’m looking for something positive out of the whole situation, I would say the playing ground for musicians has been leveled, because you can just go on Youtube to reach out to an audience. Of course, there are so many other people doing the same thing, but there are many stories and successful cases of musicians making a success from non-traditional platforms. Of course, during the good times during the 90s, there were the hit bands or artistes, just as there were so many other bands that didn’t make it, and the situation is pretty much the same now. It just makes the strongest more prominent.

Q: How has Singapore contributed to the Asian music industry?

Jim: Singaporean musicians are very different due to their influences. They have a very distinct sound or style, and that’s why Taiwanese artistes like to employ Singaporean bands to tour with them rather than hire from their own country. This is something I’m very proud of. They recognize that we are able to do certain things in a different way. We have a more western sound which they like. We are a very small country. We do not have our own market to support our musicians, but we are able to export our talents.

Eric: Our export culture for musicians is actually very strong, which is one of the reasons why MDA, WDA and NAC always come in to support this area. If you ask any person in China on the street if they knew who was JJ Lin or Sun Yan Zi or Ah Do, they will probably know them. I would say in the top ten of the more successful artistes in Asia, especially China, Singaporeans probably can make up two to three of them, and for such a small population of Singapore, that is really insane. At the back stage, a lot of hit songs are written by Singaporeans too. They do notice that we have something special. Turns out that our disadvantage in the local music scene because of language and the mixture of cultures has also become our advantage.

Q: With the advent of MP3s, how have your royalties been affected?

Eric: Yes, MP3s have affected the music industry drastically, but then again, it’s still more than $800 (laughs) and there are many other avenues in the music industry. For example, karaoke is a big culture in Chinese music. So even though people are not buying our songs, they are still always dedicating the songs on karaoke. When it is released on karaoke or on radio, it’s called public performance, and we get royalties from that. Every year, we would receive a thick file from the society who helps to collect our royalties on our behalf, and I could receive something like $30,000 in accumulated royalties for a big hit song that I wrote 11 years ago that I wrote in half an hour while I was cycling. If that song was sung by someone like Jacky Cheung, maybe I could have been getting $100,000 or $200,000 in the golden period of the Taiwan music scene before there were mp3s. But like what we said, we are not doing this entirely for money. As long as we can survive, we are happy.

Jim: A lot of musicians are feeling insecure during this period of time because we are not earning as much money as we did before when it was just CD sales. To me, I do not believe that music will die. CD will die, but music will not die. It will just become something else, and I’m just waiting eagerly what it will be next.  When vinyl first came out, live performers were afraid that they would be replaced, but apparently it became a positive effect instead, because with vinyls, their music reached out to even more people and as a result, people from all over the world came to watch them live. I believe it would turn out to be a good thing, but I just don’t know what form will it take, whether is it iTunes or Spotify, I’m not sure.

Q: Taiwan’s music industry seems to be going downhill. How would this affect you?

Eric: Last year I did a project, recording twelve of China’s craziest vocalists, from The Voice of China. As soon as I was in the studio and started recording, it was totally insane because the quality of what Mainland China’s music has become, whether it is the singing or the songs, I wondered what Taiwan was going to do now. But the way I see it is that, it will only make everyone stronger, including Singapore. Nowadays, if you want to be a Singapore singer, you just have to go watch the Voice of China and you know you have to work your ass off. Of course, pop music is not just about technical ability, but this would generally raise the level of the entire music industry. For Taiwan, yes, their incomes and budgets are all dropping, but I see that they are also going to turn into like Singapore, which is export-related. They are aggressively trying to push their artistes to China as well. If they were to only circle themselves around Taiwan, then it would not be as comfortable as it used to be, but now they are combating it by exporting.

Q: How to sell my songs?

A publisher is like an agent or manager for a songwriter, because if your songs get played on radio for example, someone has to collect the money for you. That’s the role of the publisher’s job. The second is that the publisher is able to inform you what songs are needed for which singers or artistes, so that you are able to cultivate or improve your songs. There are three main publishers in Singapore. One is Universal, one is Ocean Butterflies, and one is Funkie Monkies. If you are interested, you can send in your stuff, and we will see how we can help you. How it works for us is that we don’t sign a whole big group of writers like how some publishers do. For us, when a writer approaches us, we first analyze if 70-80 percent of the songs are marketable. I’m not talking about arrangement quality or the production, but whether this song is good enough to be pitched out. With that in mind, we will consider signing the writer under our publishing department. But if we find that this person still needs grooming, that’s where the school comes in, where we teach them to better their melodies and more complete that people would enjoy.

About the Speakers

Eric Ng
Songwriter, Arranger, Producer, Music Director

A highly sought-after Songwriter/Arranger/Producer, Eric has stamped an indelible imprint on the Asian pop scene since the late ‘90s. He has created career-defining hits for artists such as A*Mei, Sandy Lam, Tanya Chua, Jaycee Chan, and Ming Bridges. He has also performed extensively as a session guitarist for artists such as Sandy Lam and Emil Chau, staging shows all over the world from Taiwan, China, Japan, Malaysia, to London, America, and Canada.

As an entrepreneur, Eric founded Funkie Monkies Productions, a music production house that aims to groom the next generation of artists. Never resting on his laurels, he moved into movies and musicals, and he was the composer/music director for productions such as “The Voice of China” film , Singapore hit movie <881>, and Lao Jiu the Musical. Amidst his many commitments, Eric teaches songwriting at FM Pop Music School in hopes of helping aspiring musicians take a step closer to their dreams.

Jim Lim
Singer, Songwriter, Arranger, Producer

A multi-hyphenate in the Mandarin Pop industry, Jim’s career began in 1992 as a studio engineer. Equipped with a range of instrumental skills, he quickly became a self-sufficient musician who wrote, arranged, mixed, and produced his own songs. In 1999, he formed the band 梦飞船, Dreamz FM, and produced and co-wrote all 3 albums of Dreamz FM. The band attained recognition not just in Singapore and Malaysia, but also in Taiwan and China.

In 1999, he co-produced the National Day theme song “Together” sung by Dreamz FM and Evelyn Tan. The following year, he was commissioned to write the National Day theme song, “Shine on me”, which was performed by Jai Wahab and Mavis Wee. In 2004, he joined Funkie Monkies Productions, and has since written and produced for many A-list artists including Stephanie Sun, Fish Leong, A*Mei, Nicholas Teo, Jacky Cheung, and Show Luo. He has also toured with Wang Leehom, JJ Lin, A-Do, and A*Mei as a backup vocalist. Jim is an ardent supporter of local independent artists/bands, having produced albums for Serene Koong, Jones, and Rui En. He currently heads the Vocal Recording department of FM Pop Music School.

This session was transcribed by Emily Haw. Reach out to her on Twitter @emilyhaw

Founder & former CEO of Ocean Butterflies Billy Koh sets up “rights management” company.

A Singapore songwriter, composer and music producer, Billy Koh is one of the most instrumental and influential figures in the Asian Chinese-Pop (C-pop) music industry. Founder & former CEO of Ocean Butterflies, Billy transformed Ocean Butterflies Music into one of the leading independent music powerhouses in Asia for the last 20 over years.

In his 30-year long music career, Billy has produced more than 200 albums for singers from Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Mainland China & the US. He is best known for discovering & producing many successful Asian acts including Kit Chan in 1994, A-Do in 2002, JJ Lin in 2003 and BY2 in 2008.

In 2014, he quit as CEO of Ocean Butterflies to pursue his new business, Amusic Rights Management, a rights management business that exploits the “publishing rights of a musical work and all other rights resulting from the reproduction of it”. In particular, Amusic focuses on digital marketing of music, using an investment/ revenue sharing model with artistes that it works with.

We reached him to find out what exactly Amusic Rights Management is and how it works differently from a traditional music publisher and record label.

Amusic Rights Management business model.
Source: http://amusicrights.com/about/company  

What have music publishers and record labels failed to do in the current state of the music industry and how does Amusic seek to improve or work differently?

In digital platforms, music is uploaded sometimes not by creators but users. Large flows of content are mostly "self-driven" instead of pre-selected by editors in the old days. It'll be much more effective to administer copyrights of songs and sound recordings together via metadata encoded as a thumbprint of the digital tracks. Amusic does exactly that, and this is what I mean by a "rights management" company, where it invests and markets music as one.

The artists and producers are free to decide who they want to work with and they are pretty much their own boss. They don't need to be tied up with the majors, whose once powerful and exclusive physical distribution networks have now become obsolete. Heavyweight artistes like Michael Jackson, Madonna, Linkin Park all have their own music companies. The major labels would only sign distribution deals with them. These majors have hardly created any music content themselves any more for the last five decades.

As digital platforms matured, especially in the last five years, music companies who really create, produce and own music can now go to digital platforms themselves, bypassing the majors. Moreover, the majors do not own any digital platforms, especially not in China.

Amusic’s core business is in the digital realm but certainly not the only business. We are also involved in offline activities, such as helping clients pitch their songs for ads or placements in TV or film too.

Amusic doesn’t sign any artistes. It only works with the artistes. The artistes will employ or own his/her management company which decides what he wants for his/her career. The management company will then work with Amusic Creative Team, an A&R expert arm of Amusic Rights, to develop the repertoire of the artists. Amusic Rights is responsible for the quality of the products & taking care of the investment of the products including marketing it digitally.

The internet has levelled the playing field for all big and small companies to be able to gain a foothold in the fragmented music market, because even with smaller investment budgets, a substantiated level of awareness and interactive personalization can still be achieved between artistes and fans. So from an artiste's perspective, instead of working with a major label using cookie cutter "template strategies", they have the freedom to work with different partners via a modular business model to customize a plan according to their needs.

What does it take for an album to be successful, other than making sure that the product is of high quality?

High quality can only guarantee a long-lasting listening pleasure if the song even has a chance to be a hit in the first place. But how can a song be a hit? Well, that's what A&R for. It's a matter of harnessing and capturing the best of the humanities, fashion, social, aesthetic, emotion, culture, life-style etc. 

How are listeners consuming music now, particularly in China? In such a big but fragmented market, how do you ensure that your songs and artistes are heard?

Listeners in China consume music mostly through the internet, be it on PC or mobile. Marketing is about capturing focus within a specific time frame among all the rest of the competition. Using creative ways to capture attention can be the first step. However, once the crowd is pulled in, the interest level in the content will decide if the mass would want to re-generate it and amplify its reach.

In another interview, you mentioned about how the future of the music industry would and should be looking at how to maximizing its long tail. How do you think a relatively smaller company like Amusic can achieve this? Also, what are the advantages of being small? 

In the older days, most people do not have access to the old hits that they wish to recall as most players for the yesteryear's carriers or physical formats are not available any more.

Now with random accessibility provided by the digital era, everything can be made easily available by uploads generated from the users, not creators. Good music which can withstand time is in the long tail now. It's always easier to make a one-time hit than a long lasting hit. 

Of course, there's no guaranteed continuous success, but a good music team that has proven its acts which can last at least a decade or more must certainly possess some kind of know-how within. It's a science, not a miracle. 

Being small allows us to be independent, integrated & interactive, especially in the internet age. This will make every elite work for himself. It's more incentive driven and it cuts down all the nonsense of unnecessary meetings and reporting of the majors.

In recent years, many music industry professionals in China have given up or left, due to paper thin margins and a lack of a strong and cohesive ecosystem amongst the major players in the industry, including telcos, internet operators, music labels and the government. How do you think this is changing or improving? What more can be done?

At the legislative level, for sure it needs to speed up, especially when China’s economy is reforming towards growing their own innovation driven industries rather than staying merely as the "world’s factory". Again, we must not take any present copyright practices for granted. Let's see it this way, what exactly are "copyrights"?

Copyrights do not exist by virtue of God. It's a result of negotiation between creators, co-workers, platforms, media, traders & end-users. There needs to be a fair deal so that the business model can be sustained. In the last 20 years, we witness how the internet has digitised all media industries. Music is no exception, like it or not. I'm open for new negotiation for a new music business model as long as creators receive enough to make music a good living. It need not be the same way as during the old school days but it definitely needs everyone to sit down in a round table to discuss. Everyone, not just the westerners.

What do you think would the future of the music industry in Asia be like, particularly in China?

The priority now is to build super strong content and make an influential impact first. We need to create a super strong demand then the money, format and business model will surface naturally. In China, a new format that you never could have imagined will emerge.

Stop predicting and start working, on-the-ground not under-ground.

The future is a land that we've never been.

This interview was conducted by Emily Haw. Reach out to her on Twitter @emilyhaw

Timbre Group’s Co-founder Danny Loong’s take on Singapore musicians: “We may not know enough about ourselves, but I truly believe that we can be world class.”

Once a musician himself, Danny was bandleader of one of Singapore's most traveled, and widely regarded by the media and critics as one of the best bands in Asia, Ublues. The band performed in countries such as Australia, Spain, Italy and different parts of Asia.

Ublues received critical acclaim in USA at the "International Blues Challenge" in Memphis USA in 2003 and shared the same billing with James Brown, Bob Dylan, John Legend at international festivals. Ublues was also the first Asian band to be invited to perform in the prestigious music festival in Byron Bay, Bluesfest in their 20 years history.

Danny is a passionate advocate of not only Singapore music but music from Asia in general. During the interview, he spoke strongly of how his experience as a musician had shaped his vision of what Asian musicians can achieve amongst the challenges they face.

 

Danny Loong, Co-founder of Timbre Group

“In Western countries, very often many of them are surprised that we speak good English. And to be honest, if Gangnam Style did not achieve over one billion views, do you think the West would care? It’s a challenge to change their mindsets, but it’s not impossible. We only need a torch-bearer, not even necessarily from Singapore, but from Asia, to make it in the Western market so that we would be fairly judged for the quality of our music, and not be distracted by our ethnicity and its stereotypes.

During my experience in Australia, we managed to change some mindsets there, and even if it was a few hundred people, it was worth it as hopefully, that could translate to thousands or even more.”

Danny with partner Edward Chia, started Timbre Group, a holding company with a diversified portfolio of music lifestyle brands creating an eco-system of holistic and synergistic range of businesses.

Over the years, Timbre has proven to be a successful business model in the music industry, expanding from food and beverage concepts such as the Timbre chain of live music restaurants and bars to key large events Timbre Rock & Roots and Beerfest Asia, eventually vertically integrating into event and artists management, as well as a music education arm, with Timbre Music Academy and Junior Academy of Music.

Danny and Edward were both conferred the "Tourism Entrepreneur of The Year" award by the Singapore Tourism Board at the Singapore Experience Awards in 2010.

How was Timbre started? How are the roles split between Edward and yourself?

I was a full time musician, starting with a band from West Australia in 1999 after graduating. That experience as a musician was very important in shaping his thoughts to set up my own place, which eventually happened with Edward.

Since I was 18, I’ve always wanted my own place. But I wasn’t that serious until we disbanded in 2004. When I was playing in Australia, we were the only Asian-fronted band, and it was about promoting the music from Asia, as we stood out in the scene that was dominated mostly by white musicians. In 2001, I came back to Singapore with the band, and were based here for three years promoting the album and playing at various shows here and overseas.

Thanks to the eight years I spent as a musician, it developed a drive within me to build a brand name like Timbre as a force to promote Asian musicians, Asian music, and also help guide the bands.

I eventually met Edward in 2003 when he was running youth arts organization, Arts For Us All, and he invited my band to play at his events. We kept in touch, and talked about the idea of having a place, and came across the Substation, which was the first important step to what it is now.

Edward is the Managing Director, while I am the Chief Creative Director. Together with my team, we play A&R role, artiste management and creative role and develop our musicians and bands, making sure that the listeners come back and to maintain the brand’s main objective to uplift and support Singapore musicians.

What were the challenges when musicians faced back then? How about now?

Ten years ago, there wasn’t much of a live scene. There were a few places but it wasn’t a huge thing. Not many musicians were releasing albums as compared to now. Back when I was a musician myself, it was very tough for us, but we still did pretty well, and represented Singapore to play in many countries, such as Australia, Spain, Malaysia, Barcelona and Indonesia. And that experience also shaped the vision for the business of what I hope Singapore music could grow into.

In the past, being a musician was not looked upon with any respect. There was a strong stigma against musicians and anyone involved in the arts. Being in the arts was not seen as a valid profession, and the stigma still holds today, although it’s not as bad now. It was a bit disconcerting and disappointing, because the reason why I came back from Perth was because of the Renaissance City Plan report released by the National Arts Council which unveils details of Singapore’s Arts and Cultural Master Plan for 2008-2015, which got me all excited. But a renaissance cannot start if the people do not regard arts as a crucial part of culture development and the social glue that gel people together.

Through the years, I realize that (arts development) was done in a very pragmatic manner, and it seems that we may have forgotten that many legends in the past like Eric Clapton or Elton John who were struggling artists before they made it big.

When I returned, I wanted to help uplift the music scene, but it all starts with changing mindsets, and that was a huge hurdle. The lack of this cultural mindset was alarming, because if we claim to be a first world nation like Japan or Canada, we need to cultivate culture and arts at a whole different level, and this is a very important part of the ecosystem of the country.

In order to build the software or heartware of the country, we have to build trust and confidence in the youth and let ideas just blossom from a ground up level. That was the drive when Edward and I set up Timbre, which was to empower young people, and to build their confidence.

What is Timbre's strategy in creating a sustainable audience for your acts? How do you attract new customers and retain old ones?

Our customers are mainly between 18-40, anyone who likes live music and hanging out with their friends. At Timbre @ The Substation, you would always see groups of friends coming together. We also make sure that the ladies felt comfortable and safe at any of our outlets, as Timbre has a more wholesome and safe image.

At the different outlets, Timbre’s basic DNA of holistic dining experience with entertainment can be expected, but each outlet has its own charm. Timbre @ The Substation would be more rock-n-roll, louder and edgy, with more original showcases featured, due to its location near Fort Canning which live concerts are held, which is part of this entire sub-culture image that The Substation projects.

Timbre @ The Arts House would be more acoustic, laid back by the river, and because most of the customers are from the Central Business District, the repertoire would have to be different, including classics  songs from the 80s.

Timbre @ Gillman would have a more romantic dining kind of vibe and great for group celebrations like birthdays, and we also have a lot of families with kids heading there as well.

We also have Switch, which attracts a different group of customers, who are similar to the crowd at Timbre @ The Substation but they also enjoy listening to Mandarin or other Asian music. There are many who enjoy listening to Bruno Mars as much as Jay Chou, and this can be seen in their playlists.

When we first started, we had the help of many bands who brought their own fans to Timbre. We are thankful for that as Timbre @ The Substation wasn’t exactly the easiest location to find, and even today we have people calling us to ask how to get there.

At that time, it was also the start of the rise of social media such as blogs, Facebook and later on Twitter, which helped to spread awareness, especially amongst our younger customers. We’ve also had strong support from the media like The Straits Times, which published cover stories and articles about us.

Throughout the years, we realize that Timbre has become a place where people like to come to celebrate special occasions such as birthdays, marriage proposals and anniversaries. That’s where our bands play a very big part in interacting the customers and being part of the whole experience, and not just engaging or entertaining them through music. Inevitably, we become part of their lives, and that kind of branding takes effort, because we’re dealing with very personal events like wedding proposals, which we cannot afford to screw up. Every event is a customized experience, which sometimes I’ll personally handle, and all details are thoroughly looked into, right down to which song they sing on stage, whether they will do a dance after the proposal and so on. We listen to their requests and try our best help as much as we can.

We also invested in technology to improve our dedication system, which allows customers to make their dedication requests through SMS, which would be shown on screen.

How would you describe the live scene in Singapore now?

Ten years ago, the clubbing scene was bigger than live music; there weren’t many options for people to go to, but thanks to the growing popularity of acoustic singer-songwriter types like Jason Mraz, and popular Youtube performers, more people like to enjoy live music these days. We see more live band venues coming up, which are great, although there may be saturation in the market now. So it’s all about quality, and the genuine personal touch that our bands and service staff can bring to the audience which sets us apart.

Why did Timbre go into music education too?

We look at Timbre’s business as an ecosystem, where all the subsidiaries would complement and support each other.

We have about 60 students currently, and two schools, Timbre Music Academy and Junior Academy of Music.

Obviously, music education is a synergistic fit, because not only are our musicians are qualified to teach, they could also promote the classes during their gigs at Timbre, and it empowers them to create an additional revenue stream for themselves other than performing. We teach the same things as other music schools, but the key difference is that our students immediately have a platform to practice and perform live in front of an audience which we think is key to their music development.

That is when students can truly learn about showmanship and how to deal with nervousness, how to prepare themselves before going on stage; tuning up and working with other people, and a whole lot of other things which are learnt on the spot.

We have the facilities to have our students play with our instructors in a live setting, and some of the students are doing very well, playing happy hour gigs. We also work with partners like the youth arm of NTUC, nEbO as well as our universities and polytechnics to train them and give them a showcase opportunity at Switch and Timbre.

Could you elaborate on the A&R and management role that Timbre undertakes? How are they marketed and developed?

We would do talent spotting, sign them, develop them and mange them for corporate events and hopefully get them to record an album, going to markets that will be interested in them.

The instructors are empowered to look out for potential students, and given their recommendation, I would have a listen, and we will consider signing them. We have already signed a few artists under our artists management arm, one of them as young as 11 years old. We are hoping to promote her in Taiwan some day for the Mandarin market.

I truly believe that some Singaporean artists are or can be world class. There are many Singapore musicians who tour with the biggest Asian names like Zhang Hui Mei or David Tao. I think we don’t know enough about ourselves, and we tend to undertake too much of a self-defeating attitude towards ourselves. So what I want to do is to empower people to start thinking that yes, they are good enough. Personally, if I didn’t go through performing at Barcelona and Spain and all the other places, I would not have possibly known that as well. We sold our albums, got invited four times by Bluesfest at Byron Bay, who eventually became our partners for Timbre Rock and Roots.

We have good quality musicians who need to dream and think big, and we just need the audience to change their mindsets and be a little more positive. Together we could make this work.

How would you propel your artists to be successful in Asia?

In terms of the Mandarin market, of course it would be China, Hong Kong and Taiwan. As for English music, Australia has a lot of potential, and it all comes down to perception. We will work with partners on the ground who believe in such collaborations, like West Australian Music (WAM), a society that represents many musicians over there. They hold a festival and award ceremony every year. More importantly, there has to be a cultural exchange, just as how there is a lot more potential for Australian bands to come over, if the bridge is built without any prejudices or stereotypes. We brought three bands over last year, and this June they will bring three bands over here. This form of cultural exchange could start something hopefully big in future, whether is it through a major label, or through a music society, or through the arts and culture departments of government, and that’s what we want to do, which is to give back and help build a strong music community.

I think there is a lot more potential for Mandarin speaking and singing artists because they already have known Singapore, and have a good impression of Singapore because of the likes of Stefanie Sun and JJ Lin leading the way.

Of course, we would need to have quality songs, quality production, and we are heading in the right direction. I have heard from producers in the US and UK who have given praise for our production quality. Secondly, we would need to find the markets that can accept our music, which is the tough part, but it helps if our artists are marketed right and professionally.

Do you think Timbre's stable of artistes should perform more covers or more of their own original material? How do you balance both?

I always encourage my bands to write their own songs, as that is one of the best ways to improve themselves. However not every band writes songs, and we recognize that every band is different. A band like 53A does that, because they write their own songs and release their own albums. About 10% of Timbre’s house music nightly is originals, and we also have designated events such as Singapore Originals and worked with events like Singapore Writers Festival to organize production and projects, which encourage creativity and showcase purely original works.

Audiences now are reacting more positively to originals, as their fans look forward to the bands playing their own music. Thanks to social media and portals like iTunes and others, the bands can build a fan base and release their own material.

The audience base may be small now, but they will need to keep things going, build their portfolio, so that they would even be ready when they venture overseas.

What do you think would be the future of Singapore and Asia's music scene would be like? What are the top 3 trends that you'd predict.

1.    While China has become such a big influence, we have to be aware of how China consumes popular music, which is still a case study for many, but its sheer size cannot be ignored. It’s huge but fragmented, and the question is how we can penetrate it.

2.    As for Mandarin music, there could be a revival of classic rock bands, as I observed that in Beijing as well as Taiwan, there is a huge underground rock scene there. I like rock, so it would be nice if the next big thing is a band with a huge rock sound. I also hear that they are also into blues, jazz and even exploring into funk, so there could be a potential for such niche genres there.

3.    Coming back to Singapore as a market, I hope to see more original music being played, whether is it live or on radio or digital platforms like Deezer, which promotes local content. SGMUSO lobbied for mainstream radio to increase play of local content, and now we have about 1 song per hour. In my opinion, it’s not enough, but at least it’s a good start.

About Timbre Group

Timbre Group was founded with the social mission of developing the Singapore music scene through the talent cultivation of local musicians, and growing sustainable audiences for them. Today, the Group has evolved into a holistic music lifestyle company with a diversified yet synergistic portfolio of businesses ranging from food and beverage, concert and festivals promotion and music education. It currently comprises six live music restaurants and bars, two international festivals (Timbre Rock & Roots and Beerfest Asia), a pizza restaurant and delivery service, an artist management agency, and two music academies.

Timbre Group’s Portfolio of Brands

Timbre • Switch • 12-inch Pizzas & Records • Barber Shop • Timbre Catering • Timbre 12-inch Delivery • Timbre Music • Timbre Music Academy • Junior Academy of Music • Timbre Rock & Roots • Beerfest Asia

www.timbregroup.asia

Community Involvement

Danny Loong is also
- a member of the Arts & Culture Strategic Review (ACSR) committee.

- Vice-President of Singapore Musicians Society (SGMuso)

This interview was conducted and transcribed by Emily Haw. Follow her on Twitter @emilyhaw